Quad pedal race car - refurbish and improvement [ I hope ]

[DannyC]

So realised I could finish off the seat mount now I think I have finished drill holes and shortening bolts :-

So these 2 parts welded on , except for the one nearest the camera the lower side facing the camera I don't think the torch can reach it.
If not I will make a right angled bracket and weld it underneath over the join and where I can reach it further up the support.

This is the last piece where the upper seat bolts go , when I decide wear the seat needs to be.
I have to attempt to get the centre line of the seat in the middle of the car , that will not be easy.

Still you can briefly admire the new rear mech bracket , lets hope it works.

Paul

How come all the new bits look 10x better than the original stuff? ;-)

 

[stormbird]

Crikey didn't realise there was a quiz ?

a) because no one has filled them full of unused holes ?
b) they aren't black ?
c) not covered in Duct Tape ?

Any other possible answers ?

Paul

 

[undertoad]

could this car just for once stop kicking me in the nuts every time I try to make it better ?

There was a 1980's movie about a car that had malicious intent for all its owners - "Christine".
Maybe a possible name for your beastie ?

 

[stormbird]

There was a 1980's movie about a car that had malicious intent for all its owners - "Christine".
Maybe a possible name for your beastie ?

Well I will give it some consideration......
It is quite possible it is female

 

[stormbird]

The left half shaft has gone together relatively smoothly just slow because it was a learning curve.
The right half shaft won't go together satisfactorily at all !

I was getting quite jittery as it had not thrown any problems at me for a couple of days when I found these howlers !!!

Problem 1
The disc adapter has a flange on the inside with a collar on drilled for a roll pin as is the half shaft.
There are 2 orientations for this obviously 180' apart , the roll pin cannot go through the collar - axle - collar
only collar - axle then the other collar hole is not inline with the axle hole in both positions !

I may have missed this when disassembling it as it was very dirty down in that gap ?

Solution pursuing currently I slit some 15mm copper pipe and inserted it instead of axle [ m17 ] and then hammered in a reamer to wedge it in.

I then filled one of the collar holes with weld , now it is filed it goes back together ok.

Next up fill hole with oil and use it as a guide to drill through collar and axle a new M5 hole in the collar , bit of filing and it should work ?

Problem 2
The same adapter is not [ in my opinion ] drilled correctly for the 3 pins [ M5 hex headed bolts ] and the wheel does not
snuggle up against adapter but sits proud by about 3mm hence the M5' are perhaps only engaging for about 1mm

So disc mount/drive adaptor looking from the wheel side [ so collar in other picture on back of this ] with disc bolted to it can you see the bigger drive holes do not line up with the holes in the disc where the bolts are missing ?

So the centre of the adaptor is not the same centre as the axle centre [ thus producing both these problems [ I think ?]]

if the adaptor is not on the axle the it fits the wheels 3 drive studs ok [ tiny bit tight ]

So do I either :-

a) fill these with weld as well and try to redrill them ?

b) file them till wheel fits ?

c) see my engineer friend and hope when he stops laughing he has a solution , maybe more accurate than I could achieve ?

These are problems introduced when adding the Samagaga

Paul

ps I wish I had numbered these problems when I started , wonder what numbers these two would have been ?

 

[Popshot]

If you try B first the worst that will happen is you'll have very slightly bigger holes to fill. Not much of a risk.

 

[stormbird]

If you try B first the worst that will happen is you'll have very slightly bigger holes to fill. Not much of a risk.

You are right of course , figured if I remove 2 bolts mark adapter I can file the one remaining bolt hole till it fits. Then add another bolt and file that etc etc .

Paul

 

[stormbird]

So problem 1 solved to my satisfaction :-

M5 drill through the weld went well.

This inspires confidence , nothing untoward will happen to this adapter !

How ever Problem 2 has taken a puzzling turn ?

I currently only have 1 spare wheel that fits the rear , the others don't have the drive pegs [ M5 bolts + 3 washers ] awaiting the postman.
So to see how bad the adapter was out of line I removed all but one of the drive studs , the stud fit the adapter in all 3 positions [ top drawing ]

Now that was a surprise as I expected 1 or more hole to be in the wrong place ?

So I added another stud , now the wheel only fits in 2 of the 3 orientations as bottom drawing.

Which leads to the question where does the fault lie ? drawing 1 would imply all the holes are on the same diameter ?

I always try to take zillions of pictures and the arrival of this car was no exception , so look what I found:-

Green wheel on back left if you expand picture there is no gap between Red wheel on back right if you expand picture there is a visible gap between wheel and adaptor._________________________________________wheel and adaptor ?

I am sure the adaptors are still this way around however it is now the Green wheel that has a gap and the Red is snug up to the adaptor on the left !

So the fault must lie with the adaptor ?

Paul

 

[stormbird]

This car is so frustrating !!!

I need to ensure the rear wheels are parallel to each other and parallel to the centre line of the chassis , when the chassis does not have a centre line !!!

The chassis is lozenge shaped and full of holes and bent cross members etc etc

In the end I decided to extend the very small parallel centre section in the middle of the car to the rear of the car , the clamps hold to lengths of wood.

Then I joined the ends with a cross piece so the car was surrounded by a wooden box , I did my best however the tracking is still probably 3mm out and both wheels are only slightly parallel to the wood.

Bunging washers behind the pillar block bearings to alter toe in/out is only partially successful as I only have a limited number of washers thicknesses and when you have removed both inner pairs of bearing bolts about 1/2 a dozen times you loose the will to live.

This is both crude and time wasting , if I design my own car/quad it either needs to be accurate enough to avoid this all together
or if that is not possible then much simpler to adjust ....

Answers on a postcard please ...

Paul

 

[undertoad]

Perhaps keeping the wheels on is making it all more difficult - If you were just triangulating the axle ends, would that help?
It's the axles that need to be square to the centerline, and even side to side, after all.
I'm probably not understanding the issues, though, as usual.

 

[stormbird]

So nearest it has been to looking like I MAY beat it ?

Pedals on , seat properly fixed @ 2 rear axles that spin smoothly

Whoa we are close , very close however they do spin without touching anything ...

..and a busy rear end as it where ...

Next up off with seat again [ only about the hundredth time ] mount the chain pulleys and mech and get that working
2 brakes [ well one would be nice ] then we can give it a try ?

Paul

 

[stormbird]

Perhaps keeping the wheels on is making it all more difficult - If you were just triangulating the axle ends, would that help?

Swings and roundabouts I thing , the axles are a messy threaded end hard to measure from and I still need to be both in front and behind axle.
Although I suspect wheels are adding to the problems in so much as they exaggerate the differences between the 2 sides due to their diameter ?

Paul

 

[stormbird]

Crikey 12 days and almost nothing happened ? Well been away for 4 days and working on the pulley mount.

This is me getting the rear of the car lower so I can weld the bracket to the front of the front seat mount/cross member.

It is in there somewhere 2 clamps holding a steadier to the left side and 2 doing the same on the right , clamp above holding it tight[ish] to cross member and another clamp holding a length of wood for a hand steadier.

This is the weld to be done , problem is I can't get in position to weld it like this , I am stood outside the frame and turned 90' from the idea position !

Still weld looks ok a little bit wavy however not very lumpy !

Next up 2 of the hardest welds of my life so far , an uphill fillet where again I can't get into position properly.....
Still I am really happy with this heat looks ok on cross member just a bit wobbly on bracket as I first put a large tack in the middle then had to go to the start and join to tack. Other side was also done , picture a bit blurred.

So chain under pulley is the drive side , the return on these cars does not reach the other pulley as the seat cross member is to high [ I think ] the pulleys are free to wander over the axle when the need to.
Next up a small chain tube anchored to the chain keeper will control the return chain.

Pulley axle has a R clip to allow it to be removed without tools , the chain keep is made from a shortened QR. This needs a tube on the inside to allow it to be done up tight , that will allow it also to be removed without tools [ well that's the idea ]

 

[stormbird]

Well don't tell ANYBODY I have driven the pedal car ! Red tarmac is outside house

gray tarmac not outside the house a round trip of 280 meters ! Of course done the Zombie way with no brakes and no gears.

A new problem has reared it's ugly head [ this time created by me

] I made a cassette mount for the half shaft using a collar with 2 x M6 grub screws , they are not able to stop the mount slipping despite only having a 38T front ring , does not bode well for racing !

Solutions ?
Well the people on the pedal car forum suggested either:-
a) grind a flat on the shaft
b) drill some 3mm pockets in the shaft
c) drill all the way through and use a cap head M6 & lock nut

Suggestion c) seemed to avoid all this trouble in the future so after talking to DanyC to bolster my confidence I set to last night.

Well that did not go well at all !!!
I removed the offending collar and noticed there was barely a mark where 2 grub screws had clawed their way around the axle providing sporadic forward motion for 3 x 280 meters ?
Drilled one of the collar holes through the other side to M6 and used the other grub screw to locate it.

Then applied the M6 drill through the collar hole and into the shaft , after a minute I removed the collar to see the progress ..yes you guessed barely a scratch , there is a shiny mark about as big as you would expect from a centre punch.

So another set of plans needed !
1) Buy some carbide tipped drills and have another go myself
2) Take it and it's partner down to a friend who owns a local engineering works and ask him for some help drilling them both
3) Take them and the length of M17 shiny mild steel steel rod I have and have my engineering friend copy the 2 Samagaga half shafts
thus leaving this problem behind for good.
That does involve turning the wheel ends down to M15 for the hubs then turning the end further down and threading M10 for the retaining bolt.
Also drilling 4 holes for M6 bolts to retain 2 x disc mount and cassette adaptor and a locking collar.

I think 10 probably is not guaranteed to succeed and failure could render the Samagaga diff unusable , which is a shame it looks a nicely
made unit.
2) requires the least work on my friends part , I do have some browny points with him and there should be enough.
3) Good solution IF I though I might keep the car , so probably the best in the long run for the car and I ?

Thoughts ...

Paul

 

[DannyC]

Oh dear, you don't seem to be able to catch a break with this car.
Proper carbide drills should go through it ok, but it would be best done with a drill press, and proper alignment tools so the drill-bit cannot wander off the apex of the shaft and snap. Bang goes another 10/15 quid.

 

[stormbird]

Oh dear, you don't seem to be able to catch a break with this car.
Proper carbide drills should go through it ok, but it would be best done with a drill press, and proper alignment tools so the drill-bit cannot wander off the apex of the shaft and snap. Bang goes another 10/15 quid.

This is proving to be a never ending nightmare to be honest , penance for some past misdemeanor


Hard to workout how to do this , these collars really need to be right up against the bearing flanges to stop the axle moving outwards , however can't think how to mark their position on the axle accurately and then disassemble for the drill press ? Any play side to side could potentially render the disc brake useless ? Trying to drill when in situ is likely to fail , it moves and wobbles like a jelly.

Paul

 

[DannyC]

This is proving to be a never ending nightmare to be honest , penance for some past misdemeanor


Hard to workout how to do this , these collars really need to be right up against the bearing flanges to stop the axle moving outwards , however can't think how to mark their position on the axle accurately and then disassemble for the drill press ? Any play side to side could potentially render the disc brake useless ? Trying to drill when in situ is likely to fail , it moves and wobbles like a jelly.

Paul

Can you mark the position of the bearing flanges with a scriber on the shaft while it is all assembled and then put a jubilee clip on the shaft somewhere one side/both when its off the quad to represent these bearing flanges?

 

[stormbird]

DannyC certainly give it some though , of course it is tempting to just remove the wheel and then unbolt the bearings and remove it all as one piece.Yes all that anguish/swear/tears to get them lined up in the first place , only to go back to square one [ anyone any good at counting washers ? ]
Then give it to my tame engineer , who in all fairness may no longer be tame after working on it for me. I can't show him the whole car , he would refuse point blank to have anything to do with it !

Paul

 

[undertoad]

I agree with Danny on the carbide drill idea - If you can mark it, and get it to a drill press.
Do you have a carbide or hardened scribe?
I'd think to only dimple the shaft, rather than drill through.
There might be a concern that drilling completely through a hardened shaft would create a future stress-point problem.

 

[stormbird]

I agree with Danny on the carbide drill idea - If you can mark it, and get it to a drill press.
Do you have a carbide or hardened scribe?

Sadly I have no carbide stuff at all [ yet ]

I'd think to only dimple the shaft, rather than drill through.

Each shaft would need at least 2 or maybe 4 dimples to ensure it holds when racing

There might be a concern that drilling completely through a hardened shaft would create a future stress-point problem.

Much to late to worry about that ! someone has drilled through at the other ends for 2 roll pins to hold on the disc/wheel drive adaptors so that boat is long gone

Currently my money is on this solution:-

3) Take them and the length of M17 shiny mild steel steel rod I have and have my engineering friend copy the 2 Samagaga half shafts
thus leaving this problem behind for good.
That does involve turning the wheel ends down to M15 for the hubs then turning the end further down and threading M10 for the retaining bolt.
Also drilling at least the 2 holes for M6 bolts to retain 2 x disc mount.

Leaving me to still drill these holes for a M6 lock bolt for these collars

Paul


Those Samagaga half shafts are not reproducible [ easy ] as they have splined ends.
Starting with new m/s rod means I should be able to drill it in situ and ensures it is ' as good ' as I can get it.
Oh and I really need another delay at this point